TRIAL is one of the definitive acts in hardcore right now, as they have elevated the standard of kickin' music and brillant lyrics. Whether they speaking on activism, or reminding us of the history that has been paved before us, TRIAL has something to say, and they are not afraid to spread it. This interview was conducted by Jordan a. Baker with Greg, vocalist, by email in early October of 1999. TRIAL has since broken up.
pastepunk: Okay, the usual, who is in the band, what do they each play, and what is each member's best talent outside of playing music?
GREG: Trial is: Timm (guitar; does excellent layout/computer graphic work...bands and business get in touch with him and pay him the big bucks for him to do your next layout or web project!); Josh Mosh (guitar; can chop vegetables for stir fry so fast it'll make your head spin...a pro chef when not on tour); Brian (bass; general social norm upheaval in all respects); Nick (drums; desperately searching for non musical talents); and me, Greg (vocals; juggling and unicycling).
pastepunk: In my opinion, TRIAL elevated the standard of hardcore with the release of the new album, "Are these our Lives?" Could the band please talk about the album in depth? How long it took to make? What are the central themes throughout the album? Who did the amazing artwork, production, etc....?
GREG: I am amazed that this record actually exists. I know that just lyrically, that the project was so ambitious, that there were countless times when I thought that giving up was the most realistic choice because I couldn't imagine how I was going to get to a point of being ready to record. Musically, Brian and Timm could document the same struggle. Even as we got closer to the recording time, there were nights where it didn't seem like it was going to come together. After all, we did most of the final planning without a drummer! Jesus L. Pecador was brought in at the very end of the process, about a week before the recording and he learned the songs at that time. The string sections were written as a basic chord progression, by Timm, on acoustic guitar and given to the string players on cassette so that they could come up with specific parts of their own to go over what Timm was playing on the guitar. We were only able to work with them twice before recording, and they really nailed it in the studio. That piece was recorded over three nights and was worth every moment we spent on it. For more specific information about the musical elements of the record, you can email Timm and/or Brian who played bass on the record.
The one element which pulled it all together was the fact that we used Blair Calibaba as a recording engineer. Blair is from Vancouver B.C. and he is absolutely incredible. I highly recommend that bands get in touch with him - he works magic. Anyone interested can get in touch with me at xjugglerx@aol.com and I can give you his email address. We recorded with him for two weeks to get most of the work done, and then needed an extra day up in Canada to finish and redo some vocal tracking. The mixing took three or four days as well. Blair mixed the record, and had Craig Waddell at Gotham City Studios master it. All of this was done in Canada, and Craig by the way is another magician. He only does mastering, and without his help, the record would sound much less dynamic. He is another one who bands should get in touch with. Timm actually did the layout himself based on photos we had compiled or shot ourselves (the eye on the cover for example is my girlfriend's left eye!). As for the themes of the record, the idea overall was to capture as much of the human experience as possible from the standpoint of personal responsibility, awareness, and action.
We wanted a record which documented as fully as possible what it means to be a human living in this culture and more importantly, what it FEELS like. The final product is an interwoven web: each of the songs, and many of the lines within the songs, reference other lines and songs on the record. Each is a part of the whole, and a slice of life in and of itself. I am sounding pretty lofty here, but the record is worth that and more. There are no extra words on the record. Everything signifies. I was not trying to write a "punk rock record". I was trying to create a work of art which would last me until my death as a reference guide for living. For those who are not familiar with the record, song topics include: "Reflections" which describes our innate fear of death and how we aspire to more in this life than the constructs which we've built around us as a defense against the inevitable will allow; "War By Other Means" cites the persecution by the federal government of political activists and outspoken anti-imperialists within the boundaries of the supposedly democratic and free United States, and how no idea can be eradicated regardless of torture or abuse; "One Step Away" talks about being trapped between condoning or condemning violence; "In the Balance" talks about the modern workplace and how it it destroys human lives with empty promises of freedom; "When There's Nothing Left To Lose" is about claiming our suffering on an individual level and then transforming our lives in support of survival rather than despair after embracing the full horror of that suffering; "Legacy" is about identifying the legacies we pass onto our children and how those legacies, inherited from those of previous generations, shaped us and our world...and therefore how we can in turn adapt and change them now to suit our needs and desires and the needs and desires of those to come. There are four other songs on the record as well, as well as the full orchestrated string piece.
pastepunk: The lyrics in any TRIAL song are far more reaching than any nominal sing-along fare, whether it includes a history lesson, or a positive slogan for a better tomorrow. What is the band's approach to writing lyrics?
GREG: I really struggle with writing lyrics. I started writing the lyrics for "Are These Our Lives?" in November of 1997 and finished in March of 1999, and I used every day of that time to research and experience what I was writing about. Writing lyrics for me is not easy at all - it is actually next to impossible. I end up staring at blank pages for days and weeks on end, feeling like I am totally worthless and uncreative. While trying to write this record, I read everything I could in the world, and I opened myself up to feel everything in the world, and hoped throughout that I would somehow avoid a nervous breakdown and end up with something substantial. The way it usually works is that music comes first, and then the concepts for the songs come from what the music makes us feel, and then I start working on my own coming up with fragments, which in time become verses, and then songs after tons of refining. People who just sit and write lyrics page after page after page blow my mind, but I wouldn't trade my process for anything because I always seem to end up where I want regardless of how hopeless it all seems along the way. I think the fastest song written on the record was "Unrestrained" which came all out in 30 minutes at a band practice one day (and was then refined over time) and the slowest was "Reflections" which I worked on for well over a year.
pastepunk: There is a big misconception in hardcore land that TRIAL is a very preachy band. I believe that people misinterpret your attempts to educate your audience with literature as an attack on their beliefs. Is this a problem for TRIAL? It seems so absurd to me that in a scene that tries to promote positivity and change, education seems to get the short of the stick (compared to the latest kung fu dance move in the pit).
GREG: Trial has always been about sharing ideas, and in that goal, the key word is sharing. To preach is to sermonize absolute truth to the masses while assuming that they are unable to question or think for themselves. When Trial plays live, I am at somewhat of an advantage as I have a microphone and therefore a louder voice, but I have never intended Trial to be so completely dominating that no one else can voice opinions. I always am open to other ideas, even in the midst of our sets, as long as people are respectful while I am speaking and as long as others are respectful to whoever is speaking. The entire "preaching" issue is one which I will say this about: hardcore is about ideas first and foremost. If it has degenerated over the last twenty years to being just another entertainment, then there is essentially no difference between hardcore bands and the Backstreet Boys or Britney Spears. I would suggest to anyone who is not interested in ideas, to avoid all CrimethInc bands, as we all are working to bring life and passion and revolution to every show we play and every song we write, and that means that some discussion of ideas is going to be a part of the process.
Bands to avoid therefore, for the people who would like hardcore shows to be like mindless television rather than revolution are: Catharsis, Zegota, Timebomb, Ire, and Trial. Some zines to avoid in order to keep the mind free from interesting ideas or creative thought are: Inside Front (2695 Rangewood Drive; Atlanta GA 30345); ATR (ATR; 118 Raritan Ave; Highland Park NJ 08904); and Retrogression (Retrogression; P.O. Box 815; Norton MA 02766). Avoid these bands and zines at all costs. Stay ignorant. Stay safe. Do not think. Take no risks. Life is easier that way.
pastepunk: How did TRIAL hook up with Equal Vision Records? Also, what is TRIAL's relationship with CrimethInc.?
GREG: We hooked up with Equal Vision through someone who had been ripped off by our old label, New Age Records. New Age had shut down without telling us and had ignored a large number of people who had ordered Trial merchandise and who had sent in money to the label for that merchandise. We filled orders ourselves out of our own pockets for people who got in touch with us directly after having no luck with New Age. One of those people eventually ended up geting a job with EVR, and played our CD's for them. We all got in touch from there and decided to do some work together. I still consider Trial a CrimethInc band as well as an EVR band, as CrimethInc is a way of life first and foremost. I fully support and endorse all of the bands, publications, and passions emanating from that group of people, and encourage others to get in touch with them/us as well to find out what we are up to.
pastepunk: Whatever happened with New Age records? They disappeared for a bit, and I believe they are now back with a new roster of bands. Is the TRIAL ep on New Age still available?
GREG: The Trial "Foundation" CD/7" will be available again in the winter of 1999/2000 on Andy Dempz's +/- Records from Michigan. It will be remixed, have extra songs, much better packaging, and will have a full 30 minute radio interview done on Seattle's 107.7 KNDD with Timm and I in (continued to the right...)which we got to the heart of a number of different matters regarding social problems. It will be my favorite release of the next year for sure. The music will sound much better after remixing too. I am really excited for it. Interested people can get in touch with me for more information at xjugglerx@aol.com. The interview on there reached new levels of personal discussion for mainstream radio, and marked a siginificant triumph for the band in terms of our experiments with risk taking and communication.
pastepunk: How has your latest national tour gone? I know that INDECISION had to unfortunately cancel the rest of their dates with TRIAL, but in general, how have the shows been? Does TRIAL like touring, or is it a hassle to any other commitments the band has?
GREG: This was by far our best tour. The shows were solid for the most part, the band got along throughout the tour, our roadies were excellent, and response to the new record was really incredible. Timm did a great job booking it. The only problems we had were when promoters didn't promote the shows. Not everyone is a promoter, and putting up ten flyers in the dorms rooms of your friends is not promoting a show. It takes a lot of commitment and dedication and the end result is vastly different depending on the amount of work put in. We only had that happen on a couple occasions...most of the shows were great. I love touring, and we are working now to figure out how to tour as often as possible, given the constraints we face, the number one concern being my voice and not taxing it out too much. I have taken a year of vocal lessons and have done tons of research on vocal health after last years problems with my voice (overuse and subsequent vocal cord swelling) and I know now that there are limits to what a voice can take. I have heard few voices which survive over years of touring, and given that I make my living as a juggler and need my voice in order to survive, I am not willing to risk permanent damage, which is a risk faced by ALL hardcore singers, whether they are willing to face it or not. Singers should get in touch with me anytime to discuss vocal health.
pastepunk: Outside of the band, what pays the bills for TRIAL? I ask every band this question, and I always seem to get the most interesting responses.
GREG: As I said in the last answer, I am a juggler and unicyclist full time and year round in between tours. Paying the bills as a hardcore band is one of the most difficult issues to face. By going out on the road, one destroys the ability to make a living by traditional means. To make a living from hardcore is deemed unethical. To steal for a living on the road lands you in jail, as some of our members found on this last tour. So, touring bands are trapped. I used to be a firm advocate of touring bands getting paid only what promoters would offer: $20 or so per night and then finding ways to make ends meet by any means necessary. We no longer are able to do that, now that we want to be touring more often, and are trying to figure out ways to have the band pay our bills while we are on the road. The ethical dilemma is shrouded in a romantic ideal of punk and hardcore as a self contained revolutionary oasis. This is untrue, and belief in it serves as the death blow for many bands. It is an oasis, and can be revolutionary, but is not yet and has never been self contained - it could be...and that would be AMAZING even to discuss seriously! The rest of the world cares nothing of punk and hardcore however as things are now. Gas and bills continue. What is necessary for Trial is a maximizing of risk and a close examination of "wants" versus "needs" in order to keep bills to a bare minimum, and then taking a realistic stance and having the band pay for those actual needs. This past tour was an experiment with that it seemed to work well.
pastepunk: It is a well known fact that when people think of TRIAL, they think of the activism that surrounds the band. Can the band please go into some detail about their latest endeavors?
GREG: We work to disseminate information about a number of different groups and ideas on both international and local levels. At our show last night, we talked with the audience about: MOVE (Ramona Africa and Blizzard Africa had just spoken at Western Washington University and had conducted a workshop there on community organizing); the upcoming World Trade Organization meeting in Seattle at the end of November (it will be the protest of the century here); the Western Shoshone Defense Project, and I announced that my partner Cynthia and I will be starting a support group about death and dying for members of the local punk/hardcore community in order to help people deal with the recent deaths of two members of our community and also to share thoughts and feelings from their own experiences.
As a band we directly support the Western Shoshone Defense Project on a regular basis through speaking at shows and tabling with information about the situation there. The Western Shoshone Defense Project is an organization in Nevada seeking to non-violently resolve a land rights dispute between the United States government (who work in support of multinational mining corporations) and the Western Shoshone Nation which has been going on since the middle part of the 19th century. This is a struggle which at times has escalated to levels of intense violence and federal intervention. Shoshone cattle ranchers have endured theft of cattle and horses and have seen the destruction of sacred Shoshone lands through cyanide leach mining for gold, radioactive contamination from nuclear waste dumping and from nuclear testing, and harassment from the government and from the companies involved. To get more information, email wsdp@igc.org or check the link on our website at www.plusminusrecords.com/trial. Donations can be sent to: Western Shoshone Defense Project, P.O. Box 211308, Crescent Valley NV 89821, USA. Aside from the band I sit on a council known as the Music And Youth Task Force, which is made up of politicans and City officials (representatives from the police and fire departments, the City Attorney's office, the Mayor's assistant) and music promoters, band members, and show-goers who are working together to amend the City's Teen Dance Ordinance which is a law currently making all ages shows in Seattle difficult to put on within City limits. Our goal is to provide resolutions for the City Council to consider on how the City of Seattle can take a more proactive approach to youth arts and music and then give those recommendations to the City Council in the spring of 2000.
pastepunk: There is an obvious change in the writing style from "this not a trend," off the Foundation ep to the let's say, the song "one step away" off the new cd. What can be attributed to this change?
GREG: This would be a question best answered by the musicians as well as by me, and they can be reached at trial@plusminusrecords.com in order to get their perspectives for your zine (and for their perspectives on all of the other questions too!). I think art and music needs to continually transform and represent the artist as accurately as possible. For me, the new material's complexity directly corresponds to the personal depths I was willing to reach in writing it (in terms of the lyrics), and in terms of my contributions to the music (mostly suggestions here and there). Those who are willing to expose nothing of themselves create lifeless artwork. It is all a matter of risk taking.
pastepunk: Does anyone in the band collect anything obsessively, or have an oddball hobby?
GREG: Without the movies Night of the Living Dead, Dawn of the Dead, and Day of the Dead by George Romero, this life for me would be essentially worthless. Anyone with copies of the soundtracks to those movies on vinyl, CD or cassette should contact me immediately in order to sell or trade them to me and thus guarantee themselves hero status in my eyes.
pastepunk: Outside of Seattle, where is TRIAL most well received?
GREG: On this past tour, we had our best shows in Los Angeles, Denver, and Montreal. Vancouver B.C. is always fun too. We have a lot of friends there.
pastepunk: What do you think about the absolute ridiculousness of those Straight-Edge gangs in Utah. Is there a way to eliminate such stupidity? Have you caught any of the stories on these gangs on the major television networks? If so, what do think of the way the mainstream media portrays sXe?
GREG: There are no straight edge gangs in Utah. There are media and law enforcement fabricated straight edge gangs in Utah. The presence of a few dumb violent kids is something many hardcore scenes can claim, and what happened in Utah is the unfortunate and misguided connection of straight edge adherents with animal rights activists. This is where the media and the law came in. When people begin burning or vandalizing private property in the name of any cause, especially in an age where law enforcement and the military work hand in hand on surveillance tactics and in an age where "terrorism" is more of a buzzword than ever to upset the masses, the media descend like vultures. The animal rights activists in Salt Lake happened to be straight edge. The media created the connection with violent tactics and straight edgers. We play in Salt Lake as often as possible, and have never had any problems there. The stupidity surrounding this issue is in the minds, or lack thereof, of the worldwide media and the police of the Wasatch Valley...who have both bought into and expanded the hysteria full force.
pastepunk: Is there anyone right now in this world who truly inspires you to keep making music?
GREG: Life itself continues to inspire me. I have been researching death and issues surrounding death recently and really exploring the idea of the fear of death as central to the human condition. I embrace life as fully as I can, and making music with Trial, and the communication which accompanies that, is what I do to feel most alive.
pastepunk: Thanks a lot for doing this interview. Is there anything else that the band would like add?
GREG: Yes...people should get in touch anytime with questions or comments about anything I have said in this interview. Email me at xjugglerx@aol.com and get in touch. The rest of the band can be reached at the trial@plusminusrecords.com email address and I really suggest that you, reader, contact them as well in order to get varying opinions and viewpoints other than just mine. Thanks for the interview and I will see you on tour!
pastepunk: Okay, the usual, who is in the band, what do they each play, and what is each member's best talent outside of playing music? 
We wanted a record which documented as fully as possible what it means to be a human living in this culture and more importantly, what it FEELS like. The final product is an interwoven web: each of the songs, and many of the lines within the songs, reference other lines and songs on the record. Each is a part of the whole, and a slice of life in and of itself. I am sounding pretty lofty here, but the record is worth that and more. There are no extra words on the record. Everything signifies. I was not trying to write a "punk rock record". I was trying to create a work of art which would last me until my death as a reference guide for living. For those who are not familiar with the record, song topics include: "Reflections" which describes our innate fear of death and how we aspire to more in this life than the constructs which we've built around us as a defense against the inevitable will allow; "War By Other Means" cites the persecution by the federal government of political activists and outspoken anti-imperialists within the boundaries of the supposedly democratic and free United States, and how no idea can be eradicated regardless of torture or abuse; "One Step Away" talks about being trapped between condoning or condemning violence; "In the Balance" talks about the modern workplace and how it it destroys human lives with empty promises of freedom; "When There's Nothing Left To Lose" is about claiming our suffering on an individual level and then transforming our lives in support of survival rather than despair after embracing the full horror of that suffering; "Legacy" is about identifying the legacies we pass onto our children and how those legacies, inherited from those of previous generations, shaped us and our world...and therefore how we can in turn adapt and change them now to suit our needs and desires and the needs and desires of those to come. There are four other songs on the record as well, as well as the full orchestrated string piece. 
GREG: We hooked up with Equal Vision through someone who had been ripped off by our old label, New Age Records. New Age had shut down without telling us and had ignored a large number of people who had ordered Trial merchandise and who had sent in money to the label for that merchandise. We filled orders ourselves out of our own pockets for people who got in touch with us directly after having no luck with New Age. One of those people eventually ended up geting a job with EVR, and played our CD's for them. We all got in touch from there and decided to do some work together. I still consider Trial a CrimethInc band as well as an EVR band, as CrimethInc is a way of life first and foremost. I fully support and endorse all of the bands, publications, and passions emanating from that group of people, and encourage others to get in touch with them/us as well to find out what we are up to. 
GREG: This was by far our best tour. The shows were solid for the most part, the band got along throughout the tour, our roadies were excellent, and response to the new record was really incredible. Timm did a great job booking it. The only problems we had were when promoters didn't promote the shows. Not everyone is a promoter, and putting up ten flyers in the dorms rooms of your friends is not promoting a show. It takes a lot of commitment and dedication and the end result is vastly different depending on the amount of work put in. We only had that happen on a couple occasions...most of the shows were great. I love touring, and we are working now to figure out how to tour as often as possible, given the constraints we face, the number one concern being my voice and not taxing it out too much. I have taken a year of vocal lessons and have done tons of research on vocal health after last years problems with my voice (overuse and subsequent vocal cord swelling) and I know now that there are limits to what a voice can take. I have heard few voices which survive over years of touring, and given that I make my living as a juggler and need my voice in order to survive, I am not willing to risk permanent damage, which is a risk faced by ALL hardcore singers, whether they are willing to face it or not. Singers should get in touch with me anytime to discuss vocal health. 
GREG: We work to disseminate information about a number of different groups and ideas on both international and local levels. At our show last night, we talked with the audience about: MOVE (Ramona Africa and Blizzard Africa had just spoken at Western Washington University and had conducted a workshop there on community organizing); the upcoming World Trade Organization meeting in Seattle at the end of November (it will be the protest of the century here); the Western Shoshone Defense Project, and I announced that my partner Cynthia and I will be starting a support group about death and dying for members of the local punk/hardcore community in order to help people deal with the recent deaths of two members of our community and also to share thoughts and feelings from their own experiences. 
GREG: There are no straight edge gangs in Utah. There are media and law enforcement fabricated straight edge gangs in Utah. The presence of a few dumb violent kids is something many hardcore scenes can claim, and what happened in Utah is the unfortunate and misguided connection of straight edge adherents with animal rights activists. This is where the media and the law came in. When people begin burning or vandalizing private property in the name of any cause, especially in an age where law enforcement and the military work hand in hand on surveillance tactics and in an age where "terrorism" is more of a buzzword than ever to upset the masses, the media descend like vultures. The animal rights activists in Salt Lake happened to be straight edge. The media created the connection with violent tactics and straight edgers. We play in Salt Lake as often as possible, and have never had any problems there. The stupidity surrounding this issue is in the minds, or lack thereof, of the worldwide media and the police of the Wasatch Valley...who have both bought into and expanded the hysteria full force. 
